Monday, January 18, 2010
Secession?
Sould Vermont return to its former status as an independent republic? From 1777 until 1791 Vermont was known as The Vermont Republic. The Second Vermont Republic believes that a return to this status would solve a lot of our current problems. Check out this article and let me know what you think of this plan. What would be the positive and negative aspects of such a move for Vermont? Better yet, is such an action even possible? Would the federal government allow this to happen? I thought we answered this question back in 1865.
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Vermont should not return to its former status as an independent republic. It would not solve any problems in my opinion. Peter Garritano, a 54 year old automobile salesman, believes that Vermont should get a fresh start. A fresh start would be nice, but how would that solve anything? If we did in fact start over, everything would most likely return back to the way it was before. How would Vermont survive without the other countries of the United States. It is illegal to secede so how would the rest of America feel if Vermont left the country. Vermont would need resources from the other states. If they could not get it from them, they would make to make an alliance with other countries just to get the things that they need. Some positive aspects of seceding would be getting to start fresh and start a new and fair democracy. Garritano states that if Vermont did secede, they would get to start “with a real democracy”. The negative aspects of the secession of Vermont, is pretty much everything else. It most likely would not help anything. It is illegal and would grow tensions between Vermont and every other state. If in fact Vermont seceded, maybe some states would follow them. They would think, if they can secede why can’t we? Then multiple states would secede and the entire government would fail. The whole country would be split up and a disaster. In all reality, it is almost impossible to secede. Not only would the government not allow this, but would the people of Vermont want to secede? What would happen when the Governor of Vermont decides that the state will leave, but no one wants to go with Vermont. Everyone would leave Vermont and move somewhere else. Vermont seceding from the United States is nearly impossible and I don’t think that it could ever happen.
ReplyDeleteThere are many different views on the talk about Vermont succeeding and becoming it’s own republic. Like in the 70’s there are many different perspectives on the topic but the true question is whether the good outweighs the bad or whether succession should just be an idea and go no further. I think that secession could be a bad and a good thing. I think that it would make Vermont a stronger place because of having to provide for itself. I think that Vermonters would work harder if we were a republic because we would have to support ourselves and we wouldn’t have the rest of the United States to live off of. However I think that there is the possibility that Vermont wouldn’t be able to support itself. I feel like vermont succeeding would also spark other successions and the United States government would possibly declare war or try to preserve the Union as the did during the civil war. I don’t believe that if that were to happen that Vermont would survive it because of it being such a small state. I think that if Vermont were to succeed from the United States that they wouldn’t have to worry about what the rest of the country was doing unless it harmed them. One good thing that would come out of it would be not having to worry about what Trump and Hillary were doing. I do think that it could possibly happen if enough people agreed but on the other hand I don’t think it will happen because of the risks it could cause. I believe that the risks would outweigh the benefits in the long run. I personally do not want Vermont to succeed but it’s not something I can control.
ReplyDeleteI feel as though Vermont should not return to it’s former status as an independent republic for the following reasons. First of all, if Vermont succeeded from the United States, I feel like other states would follow Vermont’s footsteps and think that that is the best idea for them when I feel like it would not be. If other states started to leave the United States, then they would have to form their own new government, elect a president, and create new rules and I feel like that would take a while to accomplish. Also, some states are more liberal (democratic) and some states are more confederate (republican) than others. I know that I would not want to live in a country where the democratic vote would always overrule the republican vote. There would be a lot of people moving from one country to the other due to people's’ opinions, and their political views. Plus if other countries were mad at Vermont for leaving the United States, we could be cut off from supplies and necessities such as food and other things. If the United States were mad enough at Vermont we would not be a big enough country to fight against them if the United States did decide to declare war. We would be very very outnumbered. Another reason why I feel that Vermont should not leave and become it’s own state is because it would be pretty hard to travel in and out of the country. Everyone would need a passport just to travel to Vermont and back and I feel like that would be a pain for many people, especially if people had close, or immediate family in Vermont. Overall, having Vermont be an independent country is not a good idea and I feel as though it wouldn’t succeed in the process. - Rachele Riecker
ReplyDeleteKaleb Harvey 9/2/16
ReplyDeleteMr. Bruce
There are many positive and negative aspects of secession of Vermont but a few stand out for me. A few of the positives of secession would be that the state of Vermont and it’s citizens would not have to shell out hundreds of thousands of dollars to the U.S. government. Another positive of secession is the fact that we could make programs that would better fit the Vermont community rather than better fit the whole nation. These programs could be anything such as new insurance programs. But, there are negatives too. One of these points is a small country, like Vermont, would be vulnerable to attack. With such a small population compared to a state like California, Vermont’s national guard would have a tough time defending itself. Another negative for secession is if we were to be attacked by a threat outside of the country, we wouldn’t have the U.S to back us. If we were a part of the nation we would have the whole country to come and help and protect us, but if we would be our own country, that help wouldn’t be there. But, none of the negatives or positives of secession are possible because it is illegal for any state to secede.
But, if any of this were possible, and secession was legal, I don’t think the government would allow it. If the government would allow Vermont to secede it could cause other states to follow in line and cause a split of the nation. Also, with the nation divided, the government would receive a lot less income from federal taxes. So, in conclusion, secession of Vermont would be beneficial for Vermont, but at the same time it would be detrimental to the security and safety of Vermont that comes from being a part of the United States.
I believe that Vermont should not return to its former status as an independent republic. In my eyes I do not see how this would solve anything. A Dartmouth professor made the point saying “Governmental units that are so small end up being vulnerable to their neighbors.” I agree with this point. If Vermont did succeed, the government would be very small and have little to no power against anyone or thing. Garritano said that if he wins the election he will fix some problems. He argues that our freedom of speech has been taken away from us. He also feels as if other Constitutional rights have been taken away from us. I do agree and disagree with his statement. If he does win election and give back Constitutional rights then sooner or later everything will just go back to being the same as things are today. Positive aspects would be being private and small. Also having Vermont have their own rights that no one else can differ with. At the same time some negative aspects would being such a small governmental system. Vermont would still have to depend on the rest of the US for other needs. The act of Vermont succeeding would be considered unconstitutional. It could also seem pointless. Some people are making the argument that their only reason for succession is to get back rights. But instead of Vermont breaking away from the US why not try and fix these issues while still being a part of the US. There is a possibility that the federal government could let Vermont succeed. To their point it could be less of an issue if Vermont leaves. But at the same time if Vermont does succeed then this could cause more trouble. Other states would plead their reasoning for wanting to succeed also causing more of an issue. It would not be fair for one state to succeed and not allow other stated to follow if they wish to.
ReplyDeleteWhat I believe is best for Vermont as a state is to not secede from the United States if it even were possible. As many people above have commented that secession from the states would and is illegal. And if we were to leave from the states in my own opinion is that it would have more disadvantages than advantages. One disadvantage is that we wouldn’t have a very strong military and Vermont's population is one of the smallest in all of America only leading above Wyoming. This means that if America or even an outside country got mad at us for something, then we really wouldn’t have the men and allies to back us up in our fight, and if we were to combat against America in a civil war if they didn’t like the idea of us forcefully removing ourselves from the government then we would be completely in a sense be destroyed especially if it was a full out war with bombings and military action and not just being a politically fight. There are some advantages though for example, we would be able to make new rights and laws more easily without having to talk to the supreme court and we wouldn’t have to pay the old US government huge amount of taxes if we did succeed. For example Vermont has one of the highest tax rates in America and for a household income of $45,000 would average about 18% going to the government and not the state which would be about $8,000. And if every citizen statistically speaking makes $45,000 a year in household income and is paying about $8000 for taxes then that would be giving the government almost 5,000,000,000 dollars a year which could fix a lot of problems in Vermont. ( Don’t trust the math I may be wrong ) And yes this would be great for Vermont if we did get all that extra money, we could probably pay for everyone in Vermont to go to college for free. Giving Vermont a more educated republic which would be great if no one had to worry about paying for college, but since that seems to not be possible without causing a huge political argument and possible war with the United states we wouldn’t do it. Of course this is all in theory, if we were to succeed from the states it would have some bad and good things to it but ultimately just not being possible.
ReplyDeleteLinks : https://smartasset.com/taxes/vermont-tax-calculator#ZaT0gSgBkZ
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Secession_in_the_United_States
http://www.rutlandherald.com/article/20100114/NEWS04/1140384/1004/NEWS03
Ryley McClure
ReplyDeleteDo I think Vermont should succeed from the United States or stay part of it? That’s a difficult question. There are pros and cons to each point of view on the matter. According to Garritano, an automobile salesman running for lieutenant governor, Vermont’s secession would let us have a fresh start again and form a real democracy. Unfortunately, that would mean it would be a lot harder for us to get resources. Vermont’s climate is not capable of growing various foods that we consume in our everyday life. Therefore, we would have to make alliances with other countries so they could provide us the resources we need (i.e food, cotton, oil, etc). However, being a country of our own, we could thrive in the agriculture industry and develop new ways to grow food or have our bodies adjust to a new diet. We could also find new ways to make things such as clothes, and find new ways of transportation. Also, due to recent studies, crime is more apt to happen in a very populated suburban area. There are very few social ties with people and not as much supervision. If Vermont were to succeed, we would be a small enough rural country to connect with numerous people and develop multiple relationships. Here is the real question though. Is this legal? Would it even be allowed to happen? My answer is an honest no. This happened once and it cycled into total chaos. Anyone in their right mind wouldn’t allow this to happen again. Succession, according to the constitution, is illegal and therefore shouldn’t have been allowed to happen in the first place. If this were to even possibly happen again, other states would soon follow destroying the United States and leaving us vulnerable to other countries. We’d be running around like chickens with our heads cut off. It is just impossible. So what do I think about Vermont succeeding from the US? Well, I think it’s a good dream. I think we could make it. We could live off the resources we provide, build bonds with others, and become a very strong country. But ultimately, it will never happen due to law. History would repeat itself and we’d end up in a mess again. It is unconstitutional also, and therefore, will probably never be followed through with.
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ReplyDeleteThere are many pros and cons as to why Vermont should, or should not secede from the United States. But, I feel that Vermont should not become its own republic for quite a few reasons. One of those reasons (and the biggest reason) being Americas federal government. Although there are some reasons that it would be good for Vermont to leave, there are more reasons as to why it would be bad. But, if Vermont did ever end up seceding from the United States, I feel that it would cause a war between our state and the federal government. The Federal government basically just wants money from our taxes, and as said in the article, yes I agree that it would save a lot of money not having to pay federal taxes anymore, and instead use it for roads, buildings, people in poverty, etc. But what happens when other states start to follow and the U.S started falling apart? Or if some did not believe we should secede and moved to different states? We would not have a large enough population to be our own country. Also, as Vermont being its own republic, we would not have a strong enough defence against the larger countries in war. Vermont's money doesn't just come from our state, it comes from other as well. And if we were to secede there would not be enough money for everyone to afford to live, and there would be a much higher rate of poverty than there is now, and the state could go into debt. I noticed that the article didn't exactly explain how they planned on keeping our state one republic and who would be in charge of it all. I honestly do not see this happening any time soon because our government would never go through with it anyway.
ReplyDeleteAustin Beayon
ReplyDeleteMr. Bruce
9/6/16
Vermont should not return to being an independent republic. In my opinion this wouldn’t solve any of the current problems in the United States. If Vermont was to secede, they wouldn’t get any supplies from the states. Also, Vermont is landlocked so the large ships couldn’t get to Vermont without have to go into the United States. That would make it very hard for Vermont to get supplies. In addition, if Vermont was to secede many states would follow. Seceding is illegal so if Vermont was to leave the United States, the other states wouldn’t like Vermont. It would be nice to have our own rules and own president but it would be very hard to keep a strong government that everyone likes. Peter Garritano, a 54 year old auto salesman, thinks that Vermont should get a “fresh start”. I like the idea of a fresh start but I don’t think it would help at all. One thing I would like about Vermont seceding is not having to deal with Hillary Clinton or Donald Trump. Many people dislike both of them and that is why most states would probably like to secede. Vermont could definitely find a better president as the two running now for the United States. I just don’t think Vermont could stand on its own without any help from the other states. States like New York, and Texas probably could stand on their own because they are big industrial states. Vermont isn’t really known for anything except for dairy. I like the idea of Vermont seceding I just don’t think it will be able to stand on its own. Most people call Vermont “small” and “little” and i agree with them. Vermont isn’t like New York or Texas. Vermont is a small state in the Northeast that is known mostly for dairy. Vermont definitely couldn't secede and be successful or fix any problems that are going on now in the United States.
Katelyn kennett
ReplyDeleteMy opinion is that Vermont should not break away from the United States because there a lot of things to consider.Also there are a lot of pros and cons to this substitution.When reading the article that the Second Vermont Republic, they do not explain how they would keep us up as a republic. They don’t explain how we would have use for money or how we would keep up jobs and food and type of goverment we would have.One thing to think about is money because we don't have any of our own currency because we use the government money. So if we had to make our own currency it would cost money that we wouldn't have. It takes money to make money. Another thing to think about is jobs,which is a big thing we need to have money to support families. A lot of Vermont jobs are based off farming. A lot of farmers give food to the community because we are built on communities. But if the farming business failed then we would have to import animals to farms and import milk and other foods. Another big thing for jobs is big industries. They are a large supply for jobs in Vermont. Places like GE and paper mills give many people jobs but it isn't always for the best, with a lot of companies now foreign countries working more of our jobs everyday Vermonters would loose alot of there jobs. Even the big companies could move their business out because they would like what we would have to offer. Another big things is how we would have a government. Would we have a president ? or be like other countries in the middle east with on powerful leader? Would this new government make things better or worse for us?
Brooke G.
ReplyDelete9/7/16
Period 7 Modern U.S. History Honors
I do not think that Vermont should return to its former status as an independent republic. There are many reasons for the state to not secede from the United States. First of all, secession would make Vermont very vulnerable to attacks from other, nearby countries. Vermont as a state has a small population and therefore would have a very small army to protect it as a country, and if America decided to fight to keep it as a state, it wouldn’t last long as a country. Secondly, Vermont would need to import resources from places other than its own land and, after seceding, the United States might not be too friendly to the former state. Plus, Vermont is landlocked and has no port cities, so importing from overseas would be quite a chore, saying they were even able to navigate through the riverways connecting Lake Champlain to the ocean. And, citizens would need passports to travel anywhere, Vermont is small and people would probably wanna travel out to American states. Also, most students would probably have to leave the country to go to college, there are a limited amount of colleges in Vermont and who knows what would happen to the education system. Finally, the economy would be more than likely to crumble from such a big change. The independent republic would be in debt from the beginning and would not have money to import goods to sustain its population. For these reasons, I would have to say that Vermont Should not return to being its own country and it should just stay a state. Maybe I’m missing something, but from the information provided in the article, I do not see any facts that show a positive outcome from Vermont seceding from America and becoming its own country.
I do not think Vermont should go back to being the Vermont Republic. I do not think it would be allowed by the government. The government would not want Vermont to secede even though we are very small, because it would cause other states to try to secede as well. I do not think leaving will help any of our issues with the government, we could not provide the amount of money needed. Vermont does not have the trading and the protection as the rest of the United States. I think the people in the article had some fair points as well. For example how small businesses and farms do not get enough attention and support. Also I would agree when the article describes the United States“ It's all about profit and getting the last drops of oil on Earth and trampling people's rights." I find this statement very true in the United States all people care about is money what they can do to get more money, even though we are in a huge amount of debt. Leaving would not solve this problem though. We would not be able to make money, and getting supplies would be difficult. It would also cause a huge amount of chaos. Secession is illegal, so there is no legal way for us to leave the United states. This could never really happen, unless we repeat history. There could be a few pros to Vermont seceding though. “Vermont could establish its own Social Security system, tend to health care and maintain roads using the billions of dollars in taxes it could save by not paying federal taxes.” This shows that we could probably live and create a system without the United States, but it’s just a hypothetical. We do not actually know what would happen if we left. -Allison McIntyre
ReplyDeleteThere are a lot of positive and negative aspects of a move like this for Vermont. The two positive aspects are a fresh start and no federal taxes. The negative aspect is it could cause an economic breakdown. The fresh start would be nice, but no for the reasons they put it. Peter Garritano who is on the side that Vermont should secede from the United States said "The only hope is to just say, 'Look, this isn't working for us. We want to start fresh again, with a real democracy,'". The system isn’t the problem it is the people in the government. No federal taxes would mean that we would have less taxes to pay. So that is more money in the pocket. It could cause an economic breakdown because our state is so small. Also most of the income for businesses is tourism, if we secede we get less touris.
ReplyDeleteSo is it possible, probably not. Vermont is too small to secede. Of course there is a chance that it does happen, but that wouldn’t be smart. Vermont can’t defend other countries. Our army is too small and we don’t have the resources either. Even though they said in the article that Vermont could establish a social security system, have health care, and maintain roads. If you believe that you are crazy it’s like when the presidential candidates have their speech half of it is fake. Also it would start a war and there is no way we can win.
Andrew Ferrara
ReplyDelete9-7-16
Vermont should not return to its former status as an independent. This would not be the best decision in my mind. There are some positive aspects and some negative. There are reasons why we have independence throughout the whole country, why would we separate now if we made it this far. Sales man Peter Garritano thinks we should have a fresh start by being independent. It might seem like a good idea but how would the rest of the country like that. Would the other states turn on us and say “hey if there independent why can't we do the same”. We are a small state and we would have to supply ourselves which might be a hard thing to do considering we are not apart of the US any more. How would all the locals feel about this situation? This could make things worse with people wanting new laws that could let people get away with a lot more crimes. One good thing is that having independence would allow a different government that would be closer with the people. In my eyes I don't see Vermont going to war with any other country, we have such a small population which is a good thing. I believe a lot of people would end up leaving the state because of all the situations that could happen. Knowing Vermont is a small state what would happen if another country wanted to take us over, how big would our military be? How would people be identified throughout the country if Vermont was independent? In 1777 to 1791 times were way different such as laws and population. It was probably easier to be your own state when most parts of the country had the same amount of people.Considering we are one of the smallest states in America I don't believe that Vermont will become independent nor will it be a good idea.
People all over Vermont are currently debating whether or not we should become our own independent nation. Just like any other intellectual debate in the world, there are two sides, the sides being either for or against becoming our own nation My opinion? Well we could start debating as to reasons why we should break off from our current country. However, I feel strongly about remaining a state in The United States of America. We, being such a small state, can not sustain ourselves. We would lose so many jobs. With no government aid, we would crash and burn. But here is what I truly question. Why the sudden push to break apart? I can see that some are arguing for us to form a “real democracy” (Rutland Herald, Peter Garritano). Here’s my question to Peter Garritano. Do you understand what a country has to do to become a true democracy? We can’t just restart a new government. It took our founding fathers many years and two attempts to find the right government. How do we know that a democracy is right for us? And how to we know that this behavior, once frowned upon when suggested by the Confederates, will not influence other states like California or Texas to try to leave the States. I don’t think potentially causing another Civil War is worth creating a new democracy. Why is Vermont leaving the States any different from when the South wanted to break off in 1865. With that evidence, why would Vermont breaking off be acceptable. Would the United States even accept us and help us in a crisis or would we be a small country like the ones in Europe that nobody can remember the name of? I’m not saying that breaking off would be completely bad, but I feel that the ripple effect would cause bigger issues than we intend to cause. So, In my opinion, Vermont should not become the Vermont Republic again. - Sarah Ezzo
ReplyDeleteI do not think Vermont should secede from the United States for many reasons. I do not believe that the government would let us leave first of all. I think some cons would be that other states would follow and I don’t think it would really work out. I don’t think it would work out because look back at what happened when 13 states decided to leave the union and we went to war with them. The same thing would most likely happen to us if we tried to leave and we would be heavily outnumbered. I think that many people would leave Vermont and move somewhere else because they don’t wanna be their own independant republic. Also we would have to have a passport to leave Vermont and go to other states and we would have to have one to either move to Vermont or go through. It is illegal to secede from the United States so how would other states feel if we did or if we tried to leave. Vermont would need to get resources from other states for essential living. Finally, I believe that other states would try to follow and then the whole government would possibly fail. Some of the pros I believe would be not having to pay the government so much money and being able to do what we want. I feel like the votes would count more if we wanted to have a president or a leader and that people would listen to each other more. I think that it would make Vermont a stronger place because we would have to be or else our government or democracy would fail. All in all I do not believe that Vermont should leave the United States because it is illegal and if we did it most likely wouldn’t work out.
ReplyDeleteRuby Ianni
ReplyDelete9-7-16
Mr.Bruce
No I do not believe that Vermont should go back to to being an individual state, from reading the articles it is crazy to me that people wanted to succeed from the united states I could not imagine having to have our own form of government other than the type we have now as US citizens,or having to have a passport to go somewhere as close as New York or New Hampshire I feel as if the government would never allow a state to secede from the ¨union´´ United States, unless Donald trump becomes president but that is also a different story. The government would never let something like a state to secede because if a state does that they would fall apart, in one of the articles I read said we should secede because our government is falling apart, we could start our own social security plan, and start “shoelace plans”. I think people have many pros and cons about secession, that it would never work out even if we tried to become our own independent, I think we would fall apart, crash and burn. Then in a few months we would be begging to be one with the United States again. If Vermont ever seceded from the United states I think many people would try and move away because they would not want be be part of a state that is secceeding away from its original country. That is why I believe Vermont would never be allowed, nor would any state be able to secede from the United States.
I think that Vermont should not return to its former status as an independent republic. There are both advantages and disadvantages for Vermont to secede from the United States. In my opinion there are more disadvantages than advantages. One advantages is the fact that we would have a clean slate. We would be able to have our own president and our own rules. A few disadvantages and that there would be a lot of tension caused between Vermont and other states if we suceded. It is illegal to secede from the United States and I’m sure that if Vermont left the United States other states would try and do the same thing. This would make the Government frustrated at Vermont. If it got really bad then the United States could start a war with Vermont. If Vermont had to go to war against the United States would be outnumbered by a lot. If we could actually secede which would be very hard to do because it is illegal we wouldn’t be able to support ourselves. The other states wouldn’t be willing to help us out either. We have problems in the United States right now, but I don’t think that running away from the problems and seceding is going to help us at all. Linda Fowler a Dartmouth College professor of government said “The Problem (with secession) always is the one the farmers point out; Governmental units that are so small end up being vulnerable to their neighbors, in all kinds of ways.” This statement means that if Vermont did end up succeeding our government would be so small that we would be needy towards the other states. The states would most likely not help us out because we would be our own country. If we didn’t secede and ask the other states for something they would help us out. Overall I feel like seceding would not help Vermont at all. I don’t think this will ever happen because it isn’t even possible.
ReplyDeleteI think Vermont should not secede from the United States. The first reason I think we shouldn't is that we would go to war with the USA. Almost every place in the world can't go up and against the USA, so being right next to them would already not help. Also we would have to get our own army and that would take a while to build up. It doesn't help that are population hasn't even passed 700,000, so our army couldn't most certainly not even pass have 100,000 in the army. The USA also has so many allies, but would we still have allies after we secede? if we do we may have no allies at the moment, which would make us even more weak. We would cornered and be forced to surrender. The second reason is the struggle of money. We have taxes, but with the population decreasing teachers and other jobs might be paid less. We also will have a good portion of people leaving to the point where there will be plenty off open jobs that aren't being filled. Also we wouldn't have much money for the military to defend against the USA. The third reason is that we are on land that is a decent amount away from the sea. We wouldn’t get shipments from other countries because no ship could get to us. The USA or Canada would bring the package to us from the boat. We couldn’t have shipments come from planes either. The USA and Canada wouldn’t let them through either. So we would have to buy items from the USA or Canada. The USA would definitely not sell to us. Canada might, but that is a chance. Overall I think Vermont should not secede because it would be bad for the whole country and we could not support ourselves.
ReplyDelete